>> thank you both. that is all in for this evening. the rachel maddow show starts right now. "the 11th hour" starts right now. tonight, donald trump's new line on russia, telling a west virginia crowd this evening there were no russians in our campaign. the timing not coincidele coming hours after robert mueller broke the mus assembling a grand jury in washington, d.c. tonight what this means for donald trump, the people around him, his family, the future of the russia investigation, and perhaps the trump presidency itself as "the 11th hour" gets under way on a thursday night. and good evening once again from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. day 196 of the trump

administration. and a new revelation in the russia investigation. this involved special counsel robert mueller. as you've no doubt heard the "wall street journal" reporting he has a grand jury at his disposal in washington quoting from the journal. the grand jury which began the work in recently weeks is a sign that mr. mueller's inquiry is ramping up and that it will likely continue for months. prosecutors had been using a grand jury in nearby virginia prior to this. the "washington post" has since added to tonight's reporting, quote, experts said that washington would be the appropriate place to convene a grand jury to examine actions taken by trump since he became president and took up residence petition white house. many of the potential crimes mueller's team is investigating would have occurred in the district such as allegations that trump aides or advisers made false statements in disclosure records or lied to

federal agents. one of the president's lawyers tells nbc news quote we favor anything that skrermts mr. mueller's work and remain to fully cooperating. mr. comey told the president at least three times he is not under investigation and we have heard nothing that would change that. the only concern at the white house is that this be done fast and fairly. that's ty cobb among the president's lawyers. the president flew to west virginia to deliver a speech tonight doubling down on his contention that there is nothing to see here where russia involvement is concerned. tonight again he called the whole thing a hoax. >> the russia story is a total fabrication. it's just an excuse for the greatest loss in the history of american politics. that's all it is. [ cheers and applause ] >> it just makes them feel better when they have nothing else to talk about. what the prosecutors should be looking at are hillary clinton's

33,000 deleted emails. and they should be looking at the paid russian speeches. and the owned russian companies. or let them look at the uranium she sold that is now in the hands of very angry russians. most people know there were no russians in our campaign. there never were. we didn't win because of russia. we won because of you. that i can tell you. have you seen any russians in west virginia or ohio or pennsylvania? are there any russians here tonight? any russians? i just hope the final determination is a truly honest one, which is what the millions of people who gave us our big win in november deserve and what

all americans who want a better future want and deserve. democrat lawmakers will have to decide. they can continue their obsession with the russian hoax, or they can serve the interests of the american people. >> about this continuing investigation, and the ongoing threat that the president might attempt to fire robert mueller, members of the senate are now pushing to get a law on the books to protect mueller's job in place. two separate bills are in the works. each coming from a pairing of a democrat and a republican wp with that let's bring in the starting panel. washington bureau chief for the associated press julie pace. chief white house correspondent foshag for the "new york times." peter baker jeremy bash former cia staff and former counsel for house intel. thank you for being with us. jeremy i think i speak for the rest of us knowing you're the only harvard educated lawyer on the panel. so having said that, what does the existence of in grand jury for us lay folks -- what does it mean? >> it means that bob mueller is investigating the possible violation of federal criminal

law. it's not just now a national security investigation looking at russian activity. it's also clearly looking at americans, including people in the trump inner circle and so having said that, what does the existence of in grand jury for us lay folks -- what does it mean? >> it means that bob mueller is investigating the possible violation of federal criminal law. it's not just now a national security investigation looking at russian activity. it's also clearly looking at americans, including people in the trump inner circle and possibly the president himself

for violating federal laws pertaining to colluding with russians and obstructing justice. >> peter, if there was any doubt before today, does in reinforce the belief that russia, all things russia, are so far and will be for at least until further notice the kind of singular theme of the trump presidency? >> well it's come to dominate the first six months of course. and the real danger for him is that it continues -- the grand jury investigation is not quick. this is not the kind of investigation that seems likely to be wrapped up in a quick fashion. but this is -- remember it's not just complicated financial issues, not just complicated campaign issues. it's complicated intelligence, different language, different culture, spy work. computer work, cyberwork. all things requiring a great deal of expertise. you can imagine a prosecutor with robert mueller's experience is very compacting and meticulous and therefore not necessarily quick. >> and peter, as you and your

colleagues reported he has put together something of a legal all-star team. prosecutors covering all the bets you just mentioned >> they have expertise in a lot of different things. this is one of the things that worries the president's team obviously. he seems particular license active to inquiries into finances, particularly any financial relationship that might go suggest ties to rash. he toll news our interview a couple weeks ago that any inquiry into family finance that is did not deal with russia he would consider to be crossing a red line. he didn't say what he would do about that. but the obvious implication was he might think about i agree firing the special counsel if he went too far. >> we should mention a few minutes before we went on the air the former u.s. attorney in new york preet bhar. not sure buy all the hyperventilating re the grand jury. mueller hired 16 prosecutors. of course a grand jury. this will take time julie take us figure actively out on the road to west virginia. no surprise tonight but from the president, no retreat, no

surrender. in fact a populist tone, a little hewy long for the proud tonight. >> trump is in the element when he gets in front of the crowds in states he won. this is where he tends to travel. he doesn't go in front of audiences that aren't favorable to him. when he gets out there he is energized, gives him the energy he needs when he challenging the investigations, the congressional velgs investigation and the mueller investigation when i he says there's a hoax or witch hasn't that makes him feel good for one night on the road. but the reality is this is a series of investigations that are hanging over his presidency certainly through the end of in year and what white house officials -- when you really get them in candid moments will talk about is the prospect that this

issue will hang over the presidency not for months but potentially years. >> and julie that's why his figure of speech was so interesting, that they are out to hurt you, to hurt us, making himself part of the collective. >> he really does see this as an attempt to go after him personally. what's so fascinating about the way that this -- these investigations have unfolded in terms of what we see publicly right now is that frankly a lot of what is being built into them are things that trump has done post election. the firing of comey for example. that is not something that happened in 2016. that is not directly related to potential collusion with russia and the trump campaign. that is something that was fully within his control. but he continues to see himself as a victim of this. he wants his supporters to see him as a victim of a witch hunt, both political, driven by the media and driven by the investigators. yet again a lot of the actions that seem to be wrapped up in

this are things that happened and have been complete ily within his control. >> jeremy, mr. bhara fair point notwithstanding. what changed in that what does it mean for the president, people around him, people that have been around him since the heart of the campaign and members of his family especially? >> one thing i think is significant is that we knew prior to this is that bob mueller had access to a grand jury in northern virginia. now it appears he is utilizing a grand jury in washington, d.c. which seems to indicate the targets of the investigation. the per tanks to activities in washington at the white house or other federal agencies in d.c. not merely those in northern virginia. this is a concerning development for the president and lawyers. when you heard from the lawyers tonight they basically said the president was reassured he was not under investigation. but that was of course before he fired jim comey. i suspect if he is under investigation for one thing it's obstruction of justice for the firing of the personal investigating his russian connections. >> peter, among the interesting

things -- and we don't get access to this president that often. when he does give a speech it's necessarily interesting. number one, where he went. back to west virginia, in effect deep red, back to the base. number two, we saw the red meat come into the speech sadly too much for the boy scouts. but tonight it was appropriate. hillary clinton's emails and paid speeches. >> that's right. look he tries to make the case that he is being subjected to a double standard, that in fact the -- you know the establishment is out to get him and they're ignoring her issues her crimes her scandals whatever word you want to use. of course the difference is that he is president of the united states and that the intelligence agencies of this country have concluded the russians were attempting to intervene on his behalf not on her behalf.

they might not have succeeded his point to the audience seems a reasonable one to debate. whether or not a russian interference actually changed the outcome seems highly debatable. but there isn't a debate at least within the intelligence community that they tried to have a role in this and their goal was to help one candidate. the candidate is now the president of the united states. >> julie this gets interesting for the new chief of staff. a man as four-star generals tend to be used to having his way, especially in the marine corps. peter's buddies at the times are out tonight with a piece on the new west wing under general kelly and contains an anecdotes that if he feels a presentation of the president is rambling he will interrupt mid-sentence. what he can't control is the part of the story rolling out anyway almost on a time basis more from leaks than government you know intervention or releases. >> john kelly has a big challenge on his hands.

from everything we have heard he has taken steps to try to mitt fwat the challenges by installing more order in the west wing, basically installing any order in the west wing, doing things typical for a chief of staff trying to control access to the oval office. control the flow of information at least be generally aware of what is getting to the president of the united states. but there is a lot that has been been rolling in this administration that is kind of built into the way that this administration works and frankly that is coming from people inside the national security council. other agencies, the west wing

itself where they are motivated to reveal information not particularly favorable to the president. and whether john kelly can get his hands around that is just an enormous challenge right now. and then the -- the fallout from that tends to be the way the president reacts to the leaks. there is this chain reaction that kelly is going to have to deal with. but certainly in his first couple of days there are people in the west wing that feel like he is -- he is at least taking the first steps that he needs to get in white house on track and in order. >> same question for first, peter and then germ. we are spending a whole segment later talking about this. but did either of you gentleman think you'd ever see the day when transcripts of a private telephone call, american president and overseas leader would be leaked like you did today, peter. >> not during the presidency, while he is still in offers. that's really surprising. obviously years and decades later sometimes they come out through archival work. this is extraordinary. and you know the transcripts tell us two things. one it confirms the original reports at the time which was

that there was a lot of tension on the phone calls, something the white house tried to play down. and two it opens the window into how this president operates, how he you know interacts with the foreign leaders. this is only a week into office. but even then you can see the mixture of alternating between flattery badgering the next. the conversation with the australian prime minister in particular seems testy doesn't seem to accept the explanation he is given. he says again and again this is going to hurt me. he is very could go nizant that the policies with the foreign leaders have impact on his domestic political position and impact on his kban promises he wants to keep. >> jeremy same question. >> ool i've never seen anything like this my only recommendation to the whouls officials would be that the antidote is leaks is not investigation, paracolics it's really loyalty. there is a role obviously for investigation when there are leaks of sensitive classified information but the way to get control over the information is to have a staff that feels loyal to the president and for whatever reason right now, brian, that doesn't exist. >> these are extraordinary times. what a terrific leadoff panel tonight. . as always thank you to you for helping you covering this breaking news. julie pace, peter baker jeremy bash. the first break now and coming up we'll ask a former special counsel what this grand jury means. and what a grand jury does in this case. we're just getting started. more when "the 11th hour" continues. lorenzo neal hof tomlinson live-stream your favorite sport

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welcome back to our broadcast with news that a d.c.-based grand jury has now been impanelled by robert mueller in the russia investigation. we wanted to dig into what that entails. jeremy bash has agreed to stay with us. we welcome back to the broadcast peter zeidenberg a former prosecutor and deputy counsel in the scooter libby case during the bush 43 administration. two gentlemen who know a thing or two about grand juries. peter, just free associate here. i know the basics the word grand speaks to size, larger than the average jury trial. what is the relationship for starters that a grand jury develops with the prosecutor? and what kind of power does a

prosecutor have over a grand jury? >> well, the grand jury within the district would normally be seated for 18 months. and they don't sit every day. it's generally two or possibly three days a week. if there is evidence to present do you agree that time. and over the course of the months the grand jury and the prosecutor get to know one another. and they get to develop a rapport. and it's very useful for a prosecutor in order to sort of try out theories to the case. you can tell grand jurors are generally very active in terms of asking questions to the

witnesses, prosecutors. and from those questions, the -- the prosecutor can understand possible weaknesses in the case and get a better appreciation for what problems the jury might have with the case down the road. >> jeremy, i know you have to leave your attorney at the door if you're called before a grand jury. and i guess it's possible that some people don't know if they're a witness or a target when they arrive. it's just you and the prosecutor in there before the grand jury. is that correct? >> that's right. you have no lawyer by your side. you can take breaks and go into the hallway and consult with

your attorney. but it's you being questioned by the prosecutor. sometimes the jurors propound questions as well pl but also importantly the grand jury is a tool for the prosecutor to compel witnesses to show up. because if an fbi agent is just out there conducting investigations you can say hey i don't want to answer questions. but if you get a grand jury subpoena you have to show up or you're in contempt. there in the chair you have to start talking or invoke the fifth. same thing with documents the grand jury allows the government to get and compel documents. and i think documents will be a very important fact -- set of facts in this case. >> peter if memory serves i think it was the new york state judge saul walkler said the grand jury could indict a ham sandwich. what did he mean and why is that true. >> well it's not an adversarial process. you don't have a defense attorney in there presenting the other side of the case. and the grand jury indicts based on probable cause as opposed to proof beyond a reasonable doubt. and it doesn't have to be unanimous. all you get in a majority by a preponderens of the offend with no defense attorney no other side of the case. i don't know about the ham sandwich but it's not a high bar. and it's very rare for a grand juries to decline to indict. >> jeremy, another way of putting this as a colleague said today, does this mean that there are a to see or so people in the washington washington, d.c. riding the metro at the end of the day who know better than all of us where mueller's thinks is where the case is thus far? >> there are probably 23 of those individuals. that's right, brian, probably the size of the grand jury. also i would say there is another person in the room a stenographer, a court reporter. there will be transcripts of every person's testimony. which means if you go in there

and lie under oath you are going to jail. of course that's the same as if you were to lie to an fbi agent. but when there are court records court transcripts it becomes all the more serious. >> peter, do most people think you get that that the worse thing you can do is lie to the feds. >> i'll tell you this, that there is a conversation that every witness connected to this case is having with his attorney -- his or her attorney before they go in the grand jury. and that attorney is going to tell the witness every which way

possible that their loyalty is to themselves, not to donald trump, not to the administration, not to the trump organization. it's going to be to themselves and their family. and they're going to be told the only way you're in the going to get out of this fine is by lying. because if you lie you'll be almost certainly indicted for obstruction of justice or perjury or both. so tell the truth, for god's sake, and you'll be fine. it's going to be a much different scenario than making public pronounce mts to the press. or putting out a statement. when gou in you can't fool around. >> in the closing second what if reporters find out who the grand jurors are? what about approaching them? is there tampering? are they free or enjoined from speaking. >> secrecy. they can't talk. the witnesses and the people who go before the grand jury can

talk but not the grand jurors. i think it's -- it's just important to note, bringen that no one is guilty by virtue of the fact of the impanelling of a grand jury but this is significant development. >> what a terrific way to learn what we renner learn tonight we reserve the right to recall these witnesses if we need to know more about the grand juries. our great thanks to two great lawyers. jeremy bash peter zeidenberg. and coming up after the next break what the russia preoccupation has done to a republican white house and a republican congress thus far. that's when the broadcast continues.

have you seen any russians in west virginia or ohio or pennsylvania? are there any russians here tonight? any russians? they can't beat us at the voting booths, so they're trying to cheat you out of the future and the future that you want. they're trying to cheat you out of the leadership you want with a fake story that is demeaning to all of us and most importantly demeaning to our country and demeaning to our constitution. >> really crucial choice of words there. that was president trump, again,

tonight, huntington, west virginia, returning to a state that delivered a sweemg victory for him on election night. with us tonight to talk about the state of play and assess the damage are two of our all-star panelists msnbc political analysts eugene robinson prize winning columnist and republican veteran steve schmidt frrm bush white house aide. former strategist to john mccain's '08 campaign and then some. steve i'll start with you. what is the danger of the president continuing as he did tonight to call this a hoax and a fabrication? >> fuel sin sims in the country. we don't live in a country at some some level where facts exist in the space that they've always -- where they've always existed. daniel patrick moin hand, america everyone is entitled to

their own opinion but not their own facts. we objectively don't live there anymore. we see that dynamic play out. but at the end of the day the alternate reality the president is describing is colliding with reality. and the real world it's not a hoax. it's a real investigation. that's a real grand jury that's impanelled. and we know something else that's real. if there were russians there none of the trump staff would remember meeting any of them. and of course they'd lie about it in the immediate aftermath. and it would unravel. and we know that the campaign chairman, the son? law and the son met with people who identified themselves as being with the russian government to give dirt about hillary clinton to the -- to the campaign. and common sense tells you the three of them were there because they believed they were getting something good. and so there is a lot of smoke. and a lot of strangeness around the story. and he can say what he wants but it's not going away. >> eugene we're old enough to know who huey long is i invoked his name already once. a real kmoigs for populist

language. the president saying we're trying to cheat you of the leadership. >> that's exactly. that's the most alarming and certainly the most dangerous locution in the speech. the formulation -- who is they? it's robert mueller's investigation but it's they, the democrats, they, the faceless elites, the smarty pants, the establishment are cheating you the real americans, you west virginiaens you trump voters out of what you want, what you voted for. that's just a very dangerous thing to say in a democracy. you did not hear -- he did not win the popular vote. hillary clinton won the popular vote. yet, she did not come out and say they are trying to cheat you out of what you voted for. but then again she is not donald trump. >> steve, god forbid we wake up tomorrow morning to a national emergency. this is going to start feeling like it needs to be a real presidency there is a political reality. a presidency to run. there is a west wing to run. there is a new guy in charge. >> steve, god forbid we wake up tomorrow morning to a national emergency. this is going to start feeling like it needs to be a real presidency there is a political

reality. a presidency to run. there is a west wing to run. there is a new guy in charge. he is coming into an existing train. it seems to me he has to play it as it lays. he can't anticipate all the developments coming out. >> you have to think how frightened the australian prime minister must have been listening to that conversation, the total lack of preparation on donald trump's part for it, the weakness that it displays, the self-interest of it, the whineyness of it, over and over again. and there will be an hour where this country is tested. and they're not ready for it. that's a building where life and death decisions are made. and the circus that is -- that is playing out every day on television i fear a tragedy. i think that we will pay a terrible price for this. you cannot comport yourself the way they do, the dishonesty, the

lack of discipline, the lack of rigor, lack of preparation and not have something very bad happen. and to gene's point, what is so lack of discipline, the lack of rigor, lack of preparation and not have something very bad happen. and to gene's point, what is so startling about his rhetoric tonight is how fundamentally ill liberal huss this is a hallmark of total taern regimes when the people are talked to about the they, the enemy the insidious dark force. steven miller talking about the cosmo polten the other. the people should be relarmd. it's not normal a democracy in a draeg to which the republican party has been turned into the victim party, grievance party. whoa you listen to the phone calls, the speech. there is no victim bigger than donald trump. and it's dangerous. and putin -- you can tell from the statements they -- the weakness is not lost on them. >> i spent four years as the

post" correspondent in argentina. and in of course was long after the years of juan perron. sometimes i look at trumpism and i think of him. i think this sort of personalist party almost, the political movement that is -- is built around not a set of ideas but around a person. and it's kind of like juan and avito put together. it's also sort of a drama queen. but it's -- this is extraordinary. this is america this is extraordinary. >> we'll pause right here. take a break when we come back we'll continue the discussion

with the guests. we'll talk about the possibility that the thing uniting the parties in washington might be the president. est pro-health moh provides all... ...of these benefits to help you get better dental check-ups. go pro with crest mouthwash. checkup? nailed it when you're clocking out. sensing your every move and automatically omfortable. there. i can also help with this. does your bed do that? oh. i don't actually talk. though i'm smart enough to. i'm the new sleep number 360 smart bed. let's meet at a sleep number store.

welcome back to the 11th hour." we've seen a lot of poorlization among members of congress over the past six months. but there has recently been one thing to unite them and that seems to be standing up to the president. members of both parties came together to block the gop health care plan passed sanctions on russia. and before leaving town tonight they came together on one more thing. alaska's republican senator lisa miles an hourkowski rememberly famously one of the three gop no votes on obamacare repeal announced the senate will hold pro forma sessions every tuesday and friday throughout the august recess. this is designed to prevent president trump from appointing cabinet positions during the

recess without senate consideration. if for example he were to fire attorney general jeff sessions. eugene and steve remain with us. eugene some are writing and it's insendary that this is a lame duck presidency. and with a point we're making tonight is that it just might be a you know i fieing thing. >> well it seems to be. he heaps abuse on both sides -- both parties. in congress. and he continues to abuse the republican majority in the senate for having failed to pass health care, even though he had no idea what it was they were supposed to pass. and if he continues to do that he may well form a sort of working majority against him. it's hard for me to understand. you know u.s. senators are

pretty substantial figures and pretty full of themselves. they're not used to being talked to that way by anybody. and certainly not by a president who wants and needs them to pass this legislation. >> steve, on that question, there are real people in this country waiting for things. for deliverables, waiting for what we depend on our lawmakers to give us. and provide for us. where is all that going to come from? >> i don't think you're going to see it. you look at the health care bill. substantially you have a -- you have a bill -- a 6th of the economy is driven by health care. no one had any idea how much it cost, how many people it affected. none of the senators could explain what it was that they were voting on.

the policy-making process is completely broken. shattered. now what i'm optimistic about when you watch is you see both sides coming together institutionally to defend the institution. i think the concept of a coequal branch of government, the separation of powers that people are rejecting this journey down the road to banana republicanism. we're a constitutional republic, the rule of law. these things are bringing men and women together in the united states senate. it's promising because maybe if that gets fixed you start seeing a responsible legislating process again between the two parties. but, look, congress is 10% approval rating. it's well earned. president is at 31, 32, 33% depending on what poll you look at. these members are on recess. that's a very, very dangerous position politicly if you're an incumbent member with the midterms coming up and only three times in the last 118 years has the incumbent president's party gained seats in that election. they've lost seats in every other election. >> i should hayes ton add we are thinking your old boss and great friend john schan in the tais and weeks that go by. gentleman thank you. when we come back well will dive into the transcripts that were leaked today. the president's thought to be private conversations with foreign leaders. crohn's disease. you're more than just a bathroom disease. you're a life of unpredictable symptoms.

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who is going to pay for that wall? you better believe it. and they'll do it. on day one we will working on an inpen trabl, physical, tall, powerful, beautiful, southern border wall. i would build a great wall. and nobody builds walls better than me. believe me. and i'll build them very inexpensively. i will build a great, great wall on the southern border. i will have mexico pay for that wall. mark my words. who is going to pay for the wall? a hundred percent. they may not know it yet but they're paying for the wall. >> as you may recall it was the center piece of his campaign appearances, what became the call and response about building the wall. and who would pay for it.

well today we learned how the new president of the united states and the president of mexico talked about the wall in private. on a telephone call, the transcript of which was leaked to and published by the "washington post". the mexican president is heard trying to turn the subject away from the border wall saying at one point, this is what i sawing, mr. president. let us stop talking about the wall. i have recognized the right of any government to protect its borders as it deems necessary and convenient. but my position has been and will continue to be very firm, saying that mexico cannot pay for the wall. president trump responds but you cannot say that to the press. the press is going to -- is going to go with that. and i cannot live with that. you cannot say that to the press because i cannot negotiate under those circumstances. later in the conversation, president trump again urges the mexican president to let him handle the messaging here. quote, they are going to say, who is going to pay for the wall, mr. president to both of us and we should both say we will work it out. it will work out in the formula somehow as opposed to you saying

we will not pay. and me saying we will not pay. he continues, i am willing to say we will work it out. but that means it will come out in the wash. and that is okay. but you cannot say anymore the united states is going to pay for the wall. i'm just going to say that we are working it out. also released today was the transcript of president trump's conversation with australian prime minister malg come turnbull. in that call the two disgrood over an obama administration deal to resettle refugees in australia and to the u.s. trump abruptly ended that conversation saying, quote, i am going to say that i have no choice but to honor my predecessor's deal. i thinks it a horrible deal, a disgusting deal i would never have made. i have had it. i've been making these calls all day. and this is the most unpleasant call all day. putin was a pleasant call. this is ridiculous. let's talk about all in joining us now politico senior foreign affairs correspondent michael crowley. and an encore pormds after being with us last night nbc news presidential historian michael beshlosp how was in leak, michael, printing the transcripts a terrible precedent a bad thing for the presidency? >> well, a really bad things for the presidency because one thing that a president of the united states has to do is feel that he

can talk to foreign leaders in confidence and vice versa. and if i were a leader of another country today i would be very nervous about talking to the president of the united states because i would think that there was a big danger of that -- that conversation would leak and embarrass me. and the result is that diplomacy could be crippled. >> michael you can't put the tooth pace back in the tube process. and an encore pormds after being with us last night nbc news presidential historian michael beshlosp how was in leak, michael, printing the transcripts a terrible precedent a bad thing for the presidency? >> well, a really bad things for the presidency because one thing that a president of the united states has to do is feel that he can talk to foreign leaders in confidence and vice versa. and if i were a leader of another country today i would be very nervous about talking to the president of the united states because i would think that there was a big danger of that -- that conversation would leak and embarrass me. and the result is that diplomacy could be crippled.

>> michael you can't put the tooth pace back in the tube process. they're out we've read them having said that what did you learn from them. >> you and i talked about this a number of times. let's talk about all of this. joining us now politico senior foreign affairs correspondents michael crowley and an encore performance, michael beschloss. how was this leak and printing these triplets a terrible precedent a bad thing for the presidency? >> well, a really bad thing for the presidency because one thing that a president of the united states has to do is feel that he can talk to foreign leaders in confidence and vice versa. if i were a leader of another country today, i would be very nervous about talking to the president of the united states because i would think that there was a big danger that that conversation would leak and embarrass me, and the result is that diplomacy could be crippled. >> michael, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. so having said that, what did you learn from them? >> you know, brian, you and i have talked about this a number of times. one of the things that you really evaluate a politician on is whether he or she means what they say in private and public. how many hours of the johnson tapes we heard, 650, the lbj tapes. in a lot of cases you would here lbj make a speech in public feeling i feel passionately about medicare and on those tapes in private he's even more passionate. the thing about trump is the number of times you had it in

that video, he said i feel strongly about building a wall and making mexico pay for it and in private when he thinks no one's listening, he's talking about to the president of mexico and says essentially i've got to find some formula so i look as if i'm getting what i said i would get, even if you don't necessarily get it. >> over to mr. crowley. this is your beat during the day. what did you take away from what we've learned? >> well, brian, part of it is this is something out of the hbo comedy, veep. to michael's earlier point about foreign leaders being concerned about their conversations, i noticed trump claims that merkel -- i don't think she likes seeing her words in a transcript of a presidential call with someone else becoming public. that's a serious issue. back to my point about almost the comedy here, for instance, when he's talking to turnbull of australia, they're debate this issue of the refugees, 1250 that the united states committed under barack obama to at least consider taking in who were en route to australia, it's a complicated issue. trump is very unhappy about it. trump literally seems not to you understand the deal, why australia will not take these refugees, turnbull keeps trying to explain to him there's a specific issue with refugees

trying to reach australia by ship and that australia will not allow any of those refugees into the country because of a precedent because you don't want to encourage human smuggling coming into australia by boat and trump is not getting it. and turnbull keeps trying to explain it to him over and over again. you think about barack obama how quickly he would have processed this, a former constitutional law professor. something almost out of a comedy. he almost goes out of his way to say i'm so exacerbated. look, it's a very serious issue. it's an embarrassment to trump and the country, but there's something satirical about it that is not good for the presidency, frankly. >> michael beschloss, because part of our job for young people who may be watching who may not know, for example, the depth of our relationship with australia, give me 45 seconds on what that country has meant especially on foreign beaches as we fought wars together?

>> michael beschloss, because part of our job for young people who may be watching who may not know, for example, the depth of our relationship with australia, give me 45 seconds on what that country has meant especially on foreign beaches as we fought wars together? >> >> huge ally of ours in world war ii and more of a test when he went to the prime minister of australia and said send troops to vietnam to fight along side us. that wasn't too popular in

australia, but the australians felt so strongly about the relationship with the americans, they did it. >> michael crowley, 30 seconds of raw politics from you, will it affect the base to hear the president speak in a a less than serious way about that wall? >> brian, you would think so, and donald trump campaigned saying i'm not a politician. these politicians are phonies. this is him doing exactly the thing he said was completely wrong with washington. it's incredibly damming, but somehow these things don't seem to stick to trump with his base. his poll numbers are sinking gradually, but they are still -- his base is still with him. i don't think this is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. there have been so many other setbacks for him that you would think would damage him with his base. the base really seems to love him almost like the more em battled he gets, they more tightly embrace him. the left is long gone. >> the two best michaels on this or any other broadcast at this

hour or any other hour. don't bother looking on other networks. gentlemen, thank you. last break for us. when we come back, why trump tower is back in the news this week.

last thing before we go tonight, one last item from "the washington post." they are reporting this evening, quote, secret service vay indicates trump tower command postin lease dispute with president's campaign. the secret service always protection the president's permanent home.

in the case of trump, home is a penthouse in a high-rise named after himself on 5th avenue here in midtown manhattan. the command postwas originally below his residence on the floor below the president lived. last month it was relocated to a trailer on the sidewalk street level. a long elevator ride away causing concern about radio transmissions breaking up due to walls and distance. one former secret service made comparison. like having the quarterback of the football game being located in a different stadium than where the game is being played. it is worth noting, however, the risk assessment would be different if the president ever visited new york. he has not returned to his home since he was inaugurated.

his wife and & son stayed behind initially but have now themselves moved to the white house. that is our broadcast for this evening. thank you for being here with us. good night from nbc news headquarters here in new york. the russia story is a total fabrication. it's just an excuse for the greatest loss in the history of american politics. that's all it is. >> president trump dismissing the russia investigation, and his latest review came hours after a special report that mueller has impanelled a grand jury in washington. new, overnight, out of dubai, a fire breaks out in one of the world's